[cwoodward]

It is being reported that the airline is close to securing fifth freedom rights to operate the route twice daily from October.

There seems to be some truth in the reports but I cannot find any robust confirmation and nothing from Cathay in HK.

It would seem a very logical move by the airline and would utilise that 10,000 sq foot lounge to be opened in NY.

Will it happen ?

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christ, AndrewinHK

[AndrewinHK]

Wow, amazing if they do this!

[AndrewinHK]

My question would be.

Where are the slots coming from, I assume at the expense of exisiting HKG-LHR rotations?

This could improve aircraft utilisation, as aircraft are sat on the ground at LHR for many hours.

I assume the crew base at LHR would need to be expanded to accomodate this route.

It does perhaps align with CX collaberating with The Palladium, and the Terminal move at JFK, but the new lounge at JFK doesnt open until 2026.

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christ

[christ]

More competition is great news, although it seems to be competing a lot against one world. I am sure some would fly Cathay for the experience but it would be hard to compete with the BA / AA schedule which is fairly comprehensive. Also i would expect BA would get most of the passengers connecting from other destinations on the BA network.

However as NYC flights can be very expensive in business / first, perhaps if the tickets are marginally cheaper it would work and I suppose it must work for aircraft utilisation for it to be considered.

Certainly be very interesting to see if it goes ahead.

Who approves a 5th freedom flight?

[Rferguson2]

This would be an interesting one to see. IMHO it would not be a lucrative move for CX. Most airlines that launch fifth freedom flights do so as an extension or alternative route to their hubs, others try their luck in some markets that are underserved. Some examples of the latter include Emirates with Milan and Athens to New York. And SQ with FRA – New York (they codeshare with LH/UA on this route) and MAN – Houston (they have a monopoly and avoid the competition of UA/BA ex LHR).

Looking at London – New York specifically, not only would CX be up against stiff competition with many other airlines but also some very strong Joint Ventures. BA/AA have 14 daily departures LHR-NYC. VS/DL have 8. UA has 6. And now JetBlue as well. It isn’t just about frequency either, each of these JV’s arrive into a US hub for the american carrier with multiple onward destination option.

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see it happen. And I am sure Cathay could fill their planes on this route and maybe even turn a bit of a profit but I have a feeling they could use their valuable aircraft and crew resources elsewhere for a higher return.

[Johnnyg]

Has it been confirmed as LHR or could it be part of Gatwicks route expansion plans?

[AndrewinHK]

Rferguson, CX would have a similar feed at JFK as BA/AA they will already have codeshares in place to feed the current HKG-JFK schedule. It is a very tough market, but CX would arguably offer the strongest product on the route. I would be surprised if this were a year-round routing, more likely a winter-only, and rather than lease a slot to a rival like EK as they did previously in the winter schedule which gives EK more capacity Eastbound where you don’t want them competing with you and I am sure QR doesn’t want that either, they would rather have CX use it themselves. Of course, Air Canada made it work with seasonal LHR-Mumbai and this winter LHR-Delhi, the premium demand out of LHR makes many routes viable.

[christ]

Does it not become even harder if the route is not year round? Is CX the strongest product by far as I have heard that AA transatlantic is now excellent from friends (and far better than BA). I have never travelled AA long haul and so this always surprises me to hear this.

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stevescoots

[AndrewinHK]

Christ I would assume that CX would operate the 350 or if they had enough of the aircraft refitted the new J seat on the 77W. In my view overall the CX product is superior to AA and BA, just as I think SQ has the best product transatlantic currently with the Frankfurt-JFK and Manchester-Houston routes. Everyone can argue about who has the best seat, but it is challenging to beat an Asian carrier for the overall experience.

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Malcolm, MartynSinclair

[cwoodward]

There is of course no official confirmation from the airline.
However I am certain that if undertaken it would be year round and of course the aircraft used would route back to HKG from NY.

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BA789, christ

[AMcWhirter]

Fascinating thread cwoodward

I believe CX either considered or officially applied for these fifth-freedom rights many years ago. If CX did indeed apply its application was rejected.

Note that SIA applied numerous times for similar rights but its application was also rejected (SIA also applied several times for SYD-USA rights but was rejected). That is why SIA later applied for FRA-JFK and, I suppose, being a member of Star and code-sharing with LH its (SIA) application was granted.

I wrote a piece for the magazine a few years ago re fifth freedoms.

Decades ago these were easy to obtain but today it’s highly political.

In answer to christ – see above – if CX were to apply for LON-NYC rights it would need approval from the UK and US governments.

But the national airlines (except maybe Oneworld members) would lobby their governments hard not to grant rights.

Nowadays fifth-freedom rights are *normally* granted where a route is underserved or not served.

For example, SIA gained MAN-IAH rights because no UK or US airline showed interest in the route.

EK gained BCN-MEX rights because the route was underserved.

EK gained MXP-JFK rights because the Milanese overruled the Rome government who, because of lobbying from Alitalia, had wanted to reject the application.

Today one could hardly claim LON-NYC is underserved.

As an aside can I say that fifth-freedom rights were easily obtained in decades past.

Remember PanAm’s famous RTW flights which had fifth-freedom rights on almost all sectors.

Think back to JAL’s Silk Route flights between London and Tokyo with their multiple stops.

As an aside in my travel trade days I used JAL’s Silk Route in October 1975 to fly LHR-DEL xxx DEL-BKK xxx BKK-LHR. (Back then JAL even had rights for LHR-FCO)

In 1975 JAL’s 747 had nine-across seating in Y with several more inches of pitch !

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BA789, AndrewinHK, cwoodward, Bullfrog, christ

[Rferguson2]

I doubt even Oneworld partners AA/BA would support Cathay. OW seems to be one of the ‘looser’ alliances where oddly some OW carriers put alliances with non OW airlines ahead of their OW counterparts. An example of this is the Qantas/Qatar relationship. Qantas has a close codeshare relationship with non OW member EK and actively campaigned to restrict Qatar’s growth in the Australian market. In turn, Qatar now code share with Virgin, Qantas’ #1 domestic competitor and there are rumours that they will invest in Virgin Australia.

As an aside, I have fond memories of travelling regularly on Air India’s 747’s that used to fly between LHR and JFK/YYZ as a fifth freedom route. The food was always phenomenal and as a young student they were always the cheapest option.

@Cwoodward ‘However I am certain that if undertaken it would be year round and of course the aircraft used would route back to HKG from NY‘.
Surely this would defeat the purpose of trying to tap into the LON-NYC market if a ticket could only be purchased one way from London to New York? There are already non stop flights from New York and London to HK so surely there would be no desire to fly from LON to HKG via NYC?

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christ

[christ]

I do find the opportunities from 5th freedom flights interesting.

I am surprised CX has Bangkok to Singapore but i know many loyal Cathay people who were very happy that flight recently came back and one which i will be using when i go BKK to Singapore.

Presumably HK must have quite a few as are Ethiopian and Emirates to BKK 5th freedom?

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Kopite

[christ]

@Rerguson2 – i expect there would also be a HK to JFK to LHR – i.e. like the Singapore / Bangkok routing from HK.

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Rferguson2

[AndrewinHK]

Granting fifth freedom on London to NYC is not without precedent, remember Kuwait Airways used to operate LHR to JFK as did Air India which later switched to LHR-EWR. Cwoodward you mentioned ‘it is being reported’, can you let the forum know where it is being reported?

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Mark

[Author]

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